Justin Edmonds for The MMQB
Justin Edmonds for The MMQB

There Are Some Things Rahim Moore Doesn’t Want to Remember

His left leg nearly amputated last November, the Broncos safety has bounced back stronger than ever from acute compartment syndrome—a rare condition that left him with a 13-inch scar and wounds that you can’t see

By
Joan Niesen
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ENGLEWOOD, COLO. — The scar spreads down the outside of Rahim Moore’s left calf, scaly and black. It’s never narrow, but oh, is the middle part wide. It’s a messy scar, jagged in some places, bulging in others, working its way down 13 inches of his leg before thinning again and tapering to smooth flesh.

Moore rubs ointment over its ridges. He wants it to fade. He wants the memories to recede, too, because if that wasn’t the worst pain he’ll ever feel, well, he’d prefer not to explore other possibilities. As the Broncos’ starting safety tried to settle into bed in the wee hours on Nov. 18, he’d never felt anything so horrible as the burning, searing, throbbing pain that reduced him to tears. He didn’t know pressure was building to dangerous levels within a compartment of muscles, nerves and blood vessels in his lower left leg. But he knew it was bad. He woke up his girlfriend, who drove him to Sky Ridge Medical Center in Lone Tree, Colo.

Doing so saved Moore’s leg—and possibly his life.

Not 12 hours before, Moore had been getting ready for the Broncos’ Week 11 home game against the Chiefs. Coming off a so-so performance the previous week in San Diego, where he’d had just two tackles in a 28-20 win, the third-year pro out of UCLA believed he was poised for a breakout game. But during warmups his left leg began to feel strange. He started in his usual spot in the secondary, but as the first quarter unfolded, Moore never quite hit his stride, and that “off” feeling in his left calf morphed from discomfort he could ignore to crippling pain. By the second quarter, he begged out, and “Rahim Moore, leg injury” was announced in the press box.

No hit appeared to have caused the injury, but few thought anything of it. Moore’s mother, Nowana Buchanan, didn’t even notice her son’s absence as she watched from the stands. It seemed innocuous: a bruise, a cramp, perhaps dehydration at high altitude. On Monday morning, however, interim head coach Jack Del Rio opened the Broncos’ team meeting with the staggering news: Overnight, Moore had undergone emergency surgery for compartment syndrome—a condition Del Rio admitted never hearing of.

Del Rio said Moore would be out for six to eight weeks, but that prognosis turned out to be overly optimistic. Moore didn’t play again in 2013. He didn’t run until January. His leg was weak and withered, “a baby leg” he called it. And yet here he is six months later, sitting in a room at the Broncos’ training facility, rolling up his workout pants to reveal a left leg that looks as strong and muscular as any other NFL defensive back’s—except for that jagged, bulging, messy scar.

* * *

Justin Edmonds for The MMQB
Justin Edmonds for The MMQB

Compartment syndrome is a rare condition that occurs when pressure builds to extreme levels within muscles. In layman’s terms, swelling occurs, trapping excessive pressure in compartments that we all have in our muscles, which are contained by strong connective tissue called fascia and have a finite amount of room to expand. As blood keeps flowing in and the flow out decreases, pressure mounts, and the surrounding area is deprived of nourishment. Cells die off as the blood flow becomes restricted or cut off entirely, damaging or even killing the affected muscles.

The syndrome occurs in two capacities: chronic and acute. Chronic compartment syndrome is often exercise-induced, leading to increased pain as workouts intensify. The pain subsides once the muscles are no longer being exerted, though damage still builds up. Acute compartment syndrome is another beast entirely. A major injury, such as a broken leg, is usually the culprit; the blunt trauma typically causes pressure to build up quickly and destructively. “That’s a real emergency,” says Rams team physician and president of the NFL Physicians Society Dr. Matthew Matava, who has never treated an instance of compartment syndrome in a football player.

Moore, however, never suffered a traumatic leg injury. He woke up the Sunday morning of Denver’s game against Kansas City feeling fine, going through his normal pregame routine and having the team’s athletic trainers work on his body as they would any other game day. Then the defensive backs began their drills. Up and down the field they ran, sharpening their footwork, getting their leg muscles primed. In one drill, Moore cut to the side, felt a pinch, and his foot seemed to melt away. This was no longer the kind of dull pain his mind could block out, and he immediately turned to fellow safeties Mike Adams and Duke Ihenacho and told them he might not be able to play.

Even so, Moore took the field. Three minutes in, on Kansas City’s second series, he broke up a long pass from Alex Smith to Donnie Avery, and when he got up, Ihenacho patted him on the rear end. Moore didn’t reciprocate, deflecting the praise. Had it been any other day, he knew he could have picked off the ball.

“After that, I mean, my ankles are bad and stuff, and I’m hurting the team,” Moore recalls. “I can’t stay in much longer. I just decided to come out. I got an X-ray, and they told me there was no broken bone, no fracture, and I was like, ‘Cool. OK—what else in the world can it be?’ ”

You are not cutting my leg off,” Moore told doctors. “That’s not happening.

There was little cause for alarm. The pain subsided, and Moore went to dinner with his family after the Broncos’ 27-17 victory. He and his girlfriend drove home to his house in the suburbs, and his mother, uncle and pastor—all in town from California for the weekend—returned to their hotel in downtown Denver. As Moore got ready for bed, though, the pain returned. He began icing his leg, but that didn’t help. Neither did Tylenol.

“All of a sudden, my leg just got weak,” Moore says. “I felt like I had about 30 Band-Aids on my knee, and there was no feeling down my leg. I started to tear up, and I was like, What’s going on?

At Sky Ridge Medical Center, doctors diagnosed him with acute compartment syndrome, which can also arise from vigorous exercise and explains why the pain returned with such fervor several hours after he’d last been active (the symptoms would have dissipated if it were chronic compartment syndrome).

Cases like Moore’s—acute compartment syndrome with no broken bone—are rare, and timing is always of the essence. Almost immediately, doctors performed a needle test to gauge the pressure, which left no doubt that compartment syndrome was besieging his leg. Doctors told Moore that had he waited to come in until noon on Monday, they would have had to amputate. Any longer than that, he could have died.

Moore simply told them, “You are not cutting my leg off. That’s not happening.”

* * *

On his way to the hospital, Moore called the Broncos’ vice president of security, Keith Bishop, and asked him to alert head athletic trainer Steve Antonopulos and team physician Dr. Martin Boublik. (Both declined to be interviewed for this story.) Well past 2 a.m., it took several calls for Moore to wake up his mom, who made it to Sky Ridge just in time to see her son, already sedated, before he was wheeled into surgery.

When Moore woke up afterward—doctors performed a fasciotomy to release the pressure and clean out any dead or dying muscle—he was still in disbelief. His leg was already withered and weak, and doctors told him to use a walker to get around. This, of course, didn’t stop him from scooting up and down the hallway outside his room, feebly attempting to do lunges and dips.

Moore spent three nights in the hospital, and about two weeks later he returned to have more dead tissue cleaned out of his leg, which wasn’t scabbing properly. Doctors also released more pressure from the compartment, and they didn’t close the sliced-open leg for three days in order to let the wound drain. With that setback, Moore’s chances of returning for the AFC Championship Game all but disappeared—though he held out hope. In late December, he began reporting to the Broncos’ training room to work with Antonopulos, nicknamed “Greek,” to strengthen his leg.

“Each and every day, I approached it as if I was going on the football field,” Moore said. “I told Greek, This is my field now, and you’re my coach.”

Oooh, Rahim,” Nowana Buchanan told her son, “the Lord’s given you a whole new leg.

The two worked extensively on single-leg strengthening first, and then aimed to build the muscles in both of Moore’s calves. Now, he points to his left leg and brags about its girth, and he can’t help mentioning that the right one is also stronger than it was, and that he’s put on about seven pounds of muscle since last fall. In the offseason, once Moore was back to something approaching football shape, he did sand workouts and ran hills, using his surplus of free time to go above and beyond the trainers’ workouts. He says he feels like a rookie again.

“He’s fattened up a little bit,” Moore’s mother says. “I said, ‘Oooh, Rahim, the Lord’s given you a whole new leg.’ ”

“I didn’t know if I would ever walk again,” says Moore, who often turned to his faith during the rehab process. “I didn’t know if I would ever be the Rahim that I know I can be, and also be able to have the footwork and be swift and things like that. The Lord definitely restored me.”

By all accounts, Moore has recovered completely, and one look at his leg confirms that he’s back in peak physical shape. He’s hoping to return to the condition he was in before the injury—he logged 44 tackles, six passes defensed and two interceptions in nine full games last year—and the Broncos will need him to be all that and more on a defense that was beaten down and exposed by the Seahawks in the Super Bowl.

The odds of compartment syndrome recurring are less than 15 percent, Matava says, so for all the wondering why it happened and what caused it, Moore isn’t going to worry—and he has no desire to reminisce. Some people embrace pain, believing it can make them stronger, but sometimes it’s just better to forget the whole ordeal. That’s why Moore so diligently applies the ointment. As the scar fades, so, too, will the memories.

mmqb-end-slug-square

73 comments
LAchamp48
LAchamp48

Good for Raheem....UCLA guy, now he & Ichenocha can roam the field together...Should be a good safety combo...

eddie767
eddie767

It's strange sports topics always end up in a fight about politics or religion. This man almost lost his leg if not life. I had this in my arm and had a heart attack from pain. His faith in God or himself are the things that will help him the most. If I could tell him one thing, it would be to do his best to try ignoring, the scare mine being 30 inches, in order to get better mentally. Physically, it will come.

PopeEggs
PopeEggs

"The Lord gave you a whole new leg?"  I'll never understand the bizarre delusions of religious people.  

blynder
blynder

Compartment Syndrome is no joke.  I got the chronic kind training for a marathon - the pain WAS excruciating in a way I was not expecting for familiar with.  Fortunately for me, it would subside if I didn't exercise (not fortunate for my fitness level however) and the warning about "don't do it or we'll cut off your leg" certainly didn't help the situation. :D  Finally got the fasciotomy 4 years later (after arguing with insurance).  Much better, it is nice to see an article about this rare and not often talked about affliction.

I hope R.Moore has a great year and can put this one behind him.

HotToddy11
HotToddy11

Rahim's story brought back awful memories of my own experience. During my senior season in '91 in college, I broke two ribs and had an excruciating dull pain in my lower left leg during a football game. After the game, all I could feel was the throbbing pain in my leg and not my broken ribs. The next week, I was out and stayed on the sideline all day on crutches. My leg was very swollen, looked weird, and was very hard. No one on the training staff knew what was wrong, treating the injury with ice and elevation. That evening after the game, the pain returned, feeling like extreme cramps in my left calf. I asked my friends to take me to the head coach's house because no one could figure out the issue or how to improve my situation. The team orthopedic doctor was finally consulted. The symptoms were discussed over the phone. Once the doctor confirmed with the team trainers, he ordered them to take me to the emergency room. Emergency surgery was performed. The fasciotomy was performed, left open for two weeks, then closed. My window was about 2-3 hours from amputation. I was lucky I got diagnosed in time. Months passed, and I strengthened the leg back. However, I have a 7-8" scar down the shin of my left leg. Crazy -

jameslafferty
jameslafferty

Where did he ever discount what his doctors and trainers did for him? A lot of times people look at the negative side of what they feel they can't do. I always look on the positive side of what I can do.

Wombat
Wombat

Whether someone believes in a higher power or not why are so many driven to belittle a man's beliefs? It will not convince him otherwise, not profit you, it helps no one. So why? You can claim that religion holds back society but I can claim equally that religion is a foundation of society. So, please allow someone the freedom to believe as they choose.

JubJub
JubJub

Is God the one who gave him the medical condition in the first place only to cure him later, or did God only come around to save him after the Almighty was asleep at the wheel while Moore got this medical condition?  

BroncoFan4Life07
BroncoFan4Life07

I can't believe this article turned into a debate on God and whether or not it is right for society to believe.  Believe what you want, and both sides, need to stop trying to make their opinion any more important than another's. 

Society can believe what they want but let me ask this.  At least from my experience, all the people I know who are well off, have money and houses, blessed families and good health are usually religious. (I have the health and family part)  I believe in God and I am not even saying it is a scientific fact that he exists but if by believing in something that helps you be a better person is wrong then what do we have to live for...knowledge?  Why can't you do both?

ProfessorGriff
ProfessorGriff

Scary stuff.  I'm just glad he went to the hospital early enough in the process where the doctors wouldn't have to amputate his leg

Arthur
Arthur

Science treats someone and they praise the lord... sigh

BrianTumminelli
BrianTumminelli

@PopeEggs Ill never understand why it bothers people, like you, that others have religious beliefs.

Orange Crush
Orange Crush

@BroncoFan4Life07 "Believe what you want, and both sides, need to stop trying to make their opinion any more important than another's." That has really been my point all along. I am not a person of God. Never have been. Still I am not going to sit here and judge him on where he chooses to draw his strength from. Also that the people that are saying he is dismissing science and medicine and attributing everything to the Lord almighty are missing the point.

Orange Crush
Orange Crush

@ProfessorGriff Scary stuff indeed. Glad he made it through this harrowing experience and think this will make him a stronger person for it.

Wombat
Wombat

@Arthur Atheists want to be god so bad they won't let anyone else have one...

Orange Crush
Orange Crush

@Arthur He is a man of faith who came very close to losing his leg, well being and possibly life. He made it through the ordeal with minimal complications and the heart and drive to come back better than ever. I am far from a bible thumper, but have to wonder why this bothers you so.

rcsodak
rcsodak

Its Lord. And who do you think is responsible for "science"?

Orange Crush
Orange Crush

@Jacob4 @JubJub Again you are both missing the point entirely. He simply attributed his faith in the Lord as where he drew his strength from during this trying time. That is all. No more no less. I don't know how else to put it. To try to make it into more than that is just putting your own spin on it to further some type of agenda.

Jacob4
Jacob4

@Orange Crush @BroncoFan4Life07 Fair enough. Good chat. You credit Raheem for having faith in the lord to aid in his recovery. I credit Raheem for having faith in himself to be determined in rehab. We can bicker over wether or not god played a role in his recovery but can both agree that if he didn't do it for himself, no one else would have.

TerrapinStation87
TerrapinStation87

@Wombat @Arthur If I believe that God was not responsible for saving a man's leg, that does not necessarily make me an Atheist. Sad that you cannot distinguish that.

Arthur
Arthur

@Orange Crush @Arthur It bothers me because his condition was treated by doctors who know what they're doing because they study the human body and rely on methods and knowledge developed through scientific study.


Believe in whatever imaginary construct will give you strength, but give credit where credit is due. 

Jacob4
Jacob4

@rcsodak Let me guess. The "Lord" is responsible for science by working in "mysterious ways" through people. Can't forget that he's also responsible for the condition that caused Raheem's leg to become life threatening in the first place… Very mysterious.


Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to start a fire… then put it out… Thus making myself a hero.

Arthur
Arthur

@rcsodak LOL, may I inquire how the lord is responsible for science?

TerrapinStation87
TerrapinStation87

@Wombat @TerrapinStation87 @Arthur I was not looking for an apology, nor was I personally offended..but thank you. I just wanted to make it clear to you that just because someone questions God's influence doesn't mean they are an Atheist...no matter how many conversations you're having. That's all. Peace to you. 

Wombat
Wombat

@TerrapinStation87 @Wombat @Arthur I do and sadly it is sometimes hard to hold multiple conversations and not confuse them. I in no way meant to say everyone taking your stance was atheist but the ones that were espousing that view were addressed, thus making it unclear when I spoke to others... my apologies.

TerrapinStation87
TerrapinStation87

@Wombat @TerrapinStation87 @Arthur You clearly assumed that, based on things written on the boards above, that we were dealing with Atheists' comments. (you can be honest about that, or deny that- your choice). Your word, not mine. Just because someone does not believe that God is responsible for something does not make them an Atheist. You clearly need to understand that. Just a comment..

SARDiver
SARDiver

@Wombat @SARDiver Perhaps, although because I agree with everything you said, there might not be much tension in the discussion.

Wombat
Wombat

@SARDiver Too bad I got here so late. I would love to discuss the free will aspects of religion for I believe that we were given free will so as to make our own choice in life and thus enabling the question of good versus evil. It would have been an interesting discussion.

Jacob4
Jacob4

@JonathanD @Arthur @Orange Crush Good chat. If those individuals attributed their medical knowledge to god, they would be answering the question "Why do you do what you do?" Not "What makes you capable to do what you do?"


No matter how much a person prays, they do not gain the knowledge of how to perform surgery through faith. They achieve it through study and learning.   

JonathanD
JonathanD

@Arthur @Orange Crush Who/what do you believe in that started the Big Bang?  Or that lined up all so many physical constants in a manner that would allow for the existence of life in the only universe?

JonathanD
JonathanD

@Arthur @Orange Crush
Out of curiosity, what if the doctors themselves also attributed their knowledge to God?  The director of the National Institute of Health is deeply religious and has written several books on science and faith...he would have no problem having his accomplishments (which include overseeing the Human Genome Project) being attributed to God.  

You should also remember that the first hospitals were created by Christians who made such institutions as a carrying out of Jesus's commands to serve the poor and the sick.  

Considering that a great number of the figures prominent in the most basic scientific advancements (Newton, Leibniz, Pascal, Copernicus, Galileo, Pasteur, Mendel, Lemeitre, etc.) believed in God and were deeply theological or spiritual, the connection between overt faith and scientific/medical development goes waaaay back.  Heck, Mendel was a Catholic monk, Lemeitre was a Catholic priest, and Newton wrote more books about theology than he did about science.

Arthur
Arthur

@SARDiver Not quite, it was simply an observation on your previous comment. In response to your broader discussion about the trustworthiness of scientific results, as I mentioned before, it is a process that may reach imperfect conclusions at times, but is constantly being challenged through refined tools and improved knowledge. Our level of sophistication today allows us to understand the world to a degree unheard of by our ancestors. The learning process continues, but on certain topics, science has allowed us to accumulate enough knowledge to make sound decisions about various aspects of life that affect our everyday lives.

SARDiver
SARDiver

@jacob4 I didn't define being a god as having an imagination and the ability to reason. I was suggesting that humans, specifically Steve Jobs in this case, have these things, and that it is my belief we have these in quantity and quality because our lives were given purpose.

And I do believe in free will, not predestination. It is my opinion that the absence of proof of the existence of God allows our free will. The moment God is proven to exist, we lose free will, since we will then have absolute certainty that we will be judged. Like motorists who slow down near a cop, we would all be on our best behavior. We would lose our humanity, since much of what it is to be human involves making choices between doing right and wrong.

Science, to me, helps explain the existence of God, not vice versa. The two are not incompatible.

I must take my leave of this conversation, at least for a while. Enjoyed it.

Jacob4
Jacob4

@Orange Crush @Jacob4 Like a placebo then? Not being patronizing just trying to get you to understand I know "why" he looks to the sky. You win that point. The real discussion is why him looking to the sky in the first place is misguided. 


here's the "recipe" for rehab according to Raheem:


doctors  + surgery + physical therapy + faith = recovery.


If you subtract faith from that equation, Raheem is still alive and walking today.

Jacob4
Jacob4

@SARDiver Ha good chat. Jobs may have believed otherwise.


By your own definition of a god "having imagination and ability to reason" all humans could be considered gods. That is free will. Unless you believe its  "gods-will" and we are his vessels executing his decisions. In which case, free will is an illusion. 


It's a far less sexy idea that we are merely monkeys who became self aware. But until an omnipotent burning bush is recorded on an iPhone and the video goes viral on YouTube (both grand creations of a deity and not human beings) we will all be free to choose to believe in facts or in faith.

SARDiver
SARDiver

@jacob4 Actually, it's been models that show those things are man made.

All models are flawed. Some are still useful, but they're all flawed.

Orange Crush
Orange Crush

@Jacob4 @Orange Crush He looks to the sky and says thanks because he drew strength from his faith during a time of uncertainty and personal struggle. That is where your lack of understanding is coming from. He doesn't believe this happened through divine intervention, just that it was where he drew strength from.

SARDiver
SARDiver

@jacob4 Well, Steve Jobs was certainly gifted, but a God? Nah.

Having the imagination and ability to reason? I think that's where a Deity showed influence.

Jacob4
Jacob4

@Orange Crush @Jacob4 The point is that we are all happy Raheem is healing. We are merely discussing why he is healing. At no point did god reach down and heal Raheem. Yet he looks to the sky and says thank you?


Believe in the magic man or don't believe in the magic man. in this instance doctors (science) deserve 100% of the credit for him having two legs and being alive today.

SARDiver
SARDiver

So your position is that a deity doesn't exist because people who believed in God used God to explain things that science eventually explained? And that because of this, a belief that God is or could be responsible for life, or that a Supreme (to us at least) intelligence couldn't have an effect on the goings on here on Earth?

By that logic, the scientists (of their day) who believed that maggots and flies were actually produced by rotting meat demonstrated that science shouldn't be trusted. After all, they repeatedly observed maggots and flies emerge from carcasses, and could, with the precision possible at the time, recreate this behavior. (This is why we should be skeptical of results garnered from the scientific method. There may be unknowns at work for which we cannot account, or have accounted incorrectly.)

God's existence can't be proven, but the possibility exists. If I remember my laws of motion correctly, an object at rest or in motion tends to remain in that state unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. I believe in the existence of an intelligent unbalanced force.

Orange Crush
Orange Crush

@Jacob4 What point are you trying to make here? At no point did anybody say the doctors performing surgery on him didn't save his life. It just said he often turned to his faith during the rehab process never knowing if he would fully recover and be the same Rahim he knows he can be.

Arthur
Arthur

@SARDiver But, isn't that the argument that has been given by the faithful since time immemorial? We may not be able to explain everything now, but as we refine our techniques and discover new insights, we can better understand how life and our universe work with a degree of precision and certainty not afforded to those who place their trust in the divine... that's the beauty of science.

Jacob4
Jacob4

@Orange Crush @Arthur He has a new lease on life because doctors did emergency surgery on his leg. Had Raheem laid in his bed and prayed to be healed, he would've died. 

Wombat
Wombat

@Arthur @Orange Crush You are entitled to your worldview sir. Too bad you don't accord others the same privilege. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive but closed minds and religion usually are...

SARDiver
SARDiver

Damn double post. I blame the iPhone and my impatience.

SARDiver
SARDiver

The possibility that an external intelligence is responsible for our existence shouldn't be discounted. Until science can show or explain how the inanimate can be made to live via random occurrences in nature, the possibility does exist. Science explains speciation on a micro level, but not on a macro level, and even then, something that evolves, but is alive, already exists.

I'm an engineer and a barely practicing Presbyterian, so please spare me "lack of scientific knowledge/evangelical kook" argument.

Knowledge of science and faith in a Supreme Being are not mutually exclusive. If man were to discover how to create life in a Petrie dish, that life would be the product of science AND the result of the will exercised by a superior life form.

SARDiver
SARDiver

The possibility that an external intelligence is responsible for our existence shouldn't be discounted. Until science can show or explain how the inanimate can be made to live via random occurrences in nature, the possibility does exist. Science explains speciation on a micro level, but not on a macro level, and even then, something that evolves, but is alive, already exists.

I'm an engineer and a barely practicing Presbyterian, so please spare me "lack of scientific knowledge" argument.

Knowledge of science and faith in a Supreme Being are not mutually exclusive. If man were to discover how to create life in a Petrie dish, that life would be the product of science AND the result of the will exercised by a superior life form.

Orange Crush
Orange Crush

@Arthur @Orange Crush Well then I think you are a petty person. I am not going to sit here and judge where a person chooses to draw their strength from after an ordeal like that. I am just glad everything worked out ok and he feels like he has a new lease on life. 

Arthur
Arthur

@Orange Crush @Arthur I just believe it's counterproductive to society to attribute success to something that isn't real. It devalues our actual accomplishments and misplaces trust in falsehoods. Faith is trying to explain the seemingly unexplainable, but really it just allows people to wallow in their own ignorance (i.e., lack of knowledge. Use of the word "ignorance" there isn't as demeaning as might be implied). 

Jacob4
Jacob4

@Orange Crush @Arthur No ones "knocking" anybody's faith. Believe in the magic man if you wish but be rational about it.

You push me out of the way of a bus, then I dust myself off, point to the sky and say "Thank you Lord for sending Orange Crush to save me from that bus you sent."


 That's madness.

Orange Crush
Orange Crush

@Arthur @Orange Crush Like I stated I am not a man of God. Also I don't think for a second that he dismisses what science and medicine did for him and places it all on the Lord. I just think he was grateful it was caught in time before he lost life or limb and he was able to make it through and come back stronger than ever. I just don't see the need to knock his faith. He never discounted what the doctors and medicine did for him did he? I still don't see why what he pulls strength from bothers you.

Jacob4
Jacob4

@Arthur @Orange Crush Well put. Touchy subject for some but your point is valid. This wasn't "divine intervention" it was human intervention. A man felt pain in his leg, went to a hospital, trained surgeons saved his life, and trained fitness experts helped him regain his strength.


But lets give the credit where it's due. A man on a cloud.

Wombat
Wombat

@Jacob4 @Wombat @Arthur @rcsodak It is childish though that you felt driven to deride a man's beliefs that enabled him to have the strength within himself to persevere. Neither of us can prove/disprove the religion thing was my point, and as such why belittle him?

JonathanD
JonathanD

@Epacific @Wombat @Arthur @rcsodak I'd say an important distinction is that there's no justification for your IPU.  But hypothesizing the creation of a natural world without a creator who existed independently of that world is not any more inherently logical than hypothesizing such a creator.

You've adopted a worldview, likely mostly unexamined, that assumes that the universe just somehow came into being from...nothing?  Or something else that itself came into being from...what exactly?

JonathanD
JonathanD

@Jacob4 @Wombat @Arthur @rcsodak Um, isn't the difference that Arthur is the one who started off trying to mock someone's religious belief in an article where that was a distant tangent at most?

Epacific
Epacific

@Wombat @Arthur @rcsodak Prove to you that god doesn't exist?  Prove to me that the Invisible Pink Unicorn doesn't and I'll use your method. :)

Jacob4
Jacob4

@Wombat @Arthur @rcsodak Your entitled to your own thoughts and opinions. Just because someone does not agree with those same opinions does not make them childish. Here's your same argument from my standpoint:


I may not be able to prove with physical evidence that God doesn't exist but that's fine, I have science. Until you can prove with physical evidence that God does exist stop your nattering, childish comments and let folks believe what they like.

Wombat
Wombat

@Arthur @rcsodak I may not be able to prove with physical evidence that God exists but that's fine, I have faith. Until you can prove with physical evidence that God doesn't exist stop your nattering, childish comments and let folks believe what they like.

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